I am grateful to Mr. McAfee for his time and interest in my complaints. Here is a round up of this story and all complaints/responses.
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Email to me, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:22 PM:
“Good afternoon Mr. King,
I wanted to let you know that I’ve received and reviewed your supplemental complaint. I also forwarded it along to the Deputy AG in charge of investigations with the AG’s Office as you requested. I think it would be more efficient for me to explain my thoughts on this by phone, specifically why I think OIG still lacks a jurisdictional mandate to explore your concerns. Feel free to let me know a good time to call.” (Scott McAfee)
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Audio
Transcript by Rev.com
D.A. King:
[inaudible 00:00:00] (hello?…)
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
… Mr. King. Hey, Mr. King?
D.A. King:
Yes?
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Hey, this is Scott McAfee with, uh, State OIG. How are you?
D.A. King:
I’m fine, sir. Thank you very much for calling, Mr. McAfee. I appreciate your time.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
No, not at all. Um, and uh, I can tell that you’ve, you’ve put a lot of time and effort into this complaint, and uh, and done a lot of research, which I can certainly appreciate because not all of the complaints we get have that level of detail. Um, so, uh, but I thought that it might be easier for me just to call you and, uh, and talk through some of these things. Um, and, and try to, and try to explain kinda where I’m coming from as I, as I read your complaint. Um, so, you know, as we’ve, as we’ve kinda gone through it before, when it comes to county sheriff’s …
Or, uh, lemme start out at a higher level. So, OIG, um, at, at, in Georgia is actually formed through an executive order that goes way back to, um, Governor Sonny Perdue. And uh, we’ve got it linked on the website if you have any interest whatsoever in reading it, but we only exist in statute. Uh, we’re purely an arm of the governor’s office, uh, with the, with the mandate of, um, prevention of fraud, waste, abuse, and corruption in state government. Uh, specifically the Executive Branch, right?
So that’s where, as a general matter, whenever anyone comes to us, uh, talking about, uh, county sheriffs, county boards of education, county jails, that sort of thing, that’s a pretty clear line in the, uh, in the sand for us where we say, “Look. That’s not our mandate. Uh, we don’t have jurisdiction to get into that. We need to stay in our lane.”
Now, um, I can tell, um … And now, the way you’ve, you’ve put it, uh, and, and, and looked through it, you, you have concerns over how, uh, the governor, and obviously, especially these, uh, these county sheriffs are executing, um … Or administering, uh, the immigration policy and, and some of the statutes concerning that, right?
D.A. King:
Well, no- no- not exactly, and if I may, uh, I appreciate your break.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Sure. No, no, no. Yeah.
D.A. King:
Um, I, I have done a lot of research, but I have a … Uh, I have what I believe to be be probably a, a, a unique, um, vantage point in all this in that I have been privy to drafting and passing m- m- most, if not … th- … Uh, no, I, I think there’s one I can think of. One of the laws in this state that is aimed at deterring illegal immigration into Georgia, that I didn’t have anything to do with. Other than that, I’m not sure that there is anything that I didn’t have my hand in in some way. It was a OJT kind of…-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Mm-hmm.
D.A. King:
… situation, but I appreciate your notice. Um, I’ve devoted my life to trying to educate people on the dangers of illegal immigration in an effort to honor a, a, a friend’s son who is forever 16 because we don’t do exactly that.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Mm-hmm.
D.A. King:
So, to save you some time, and please know how much I appreciate your time, I am clear on your response about the state, about the county sheriffs being employees of the county and not state officers.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Mm-hmm.
D.A. King:
Um, it’s kind of a, a, a … I regard it as kind of a gray area in that they are their own constitutional office in the state.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Mm-hmm.
D.A. King:
But, I, I, I’m not going there for now. My most recent attempt to get some action from your office was aimed at the current governor, um, being a- a- b- according to their constitutional oath, obviously, he has a duty to make sure all the laws are enforced. The law is pretty clear on, on what the sheriff or any jailer is supposed to do as far as using reasonable effort to determine immigration status and reporting illegal aliens to the feds.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Mm-hmm.
D.A. King:
U- um, that’s not happening. Not only is it not happening, but um, the sheriff in Gwinnett County has told the Associated Press and every reporter he could fit into the room at his, um, swearing in ceremony in January, uh, 1st of 2021 that it, not … He’s not going to do exactly what the law requires.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Mm-hmm.
D.A. King:
So, I’m looking to s- find an agency that will force the governor to honor his oath of office, to go after a sheriff who is in clear violation of state law.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
So, that, I think, maybe where we can, we can really flesh out and, and, and really see, uh, where, I think, we’re gonna fall short, is when you say, “An agency that can,” uh, uh, uh, the words you used were, “to force the governor to follow the law.” Uh, OIG, that is not something that we have the power to do. Um, we, uh …
As I mentioned, there’s about 10 of us here. We have auditors. We have some investigators. Uh, we’re not POST certified. We’re working on that. But we’re not officially a law enforcement agency. Uh, but generally, what we do is we will work up a case. If there’s a criminal element to it, we investigate it, we do interviews, we do a financial analysis. We put together a package, and we give it to the Attorney General’s Office, and we, and we hope that they’ll bring an indictment.
Um, I write some letters if I find, if I find things that I think, um, you know, fall under the waste, fraud, abuse, corruption angle. But in terms of having the legal authority to force, uh, a public official to do anything, that’s, that’s not what, that’s not what we can do. Um, you know?
We … I’ve, I’ve … Certainly, we had issues come up along the way where I, I’ve, I’ve written letters, and I’ve, and I’ve made recommendations. Uh, but other agency heads, and especially elected officials are fully free just to toss it in the trash (laughs) and disregard it. Uh, so if … Uh, you know, when … We can start right there in terms of if, if you’re looking for us to be able to actually force anyone to do anything. That’s just really not in [inaudible 00:05:36] goal.
D.A. King:
No, I … That was clear, and I me- … I, I understand that. Um, you told me a couple of things I did not know there, so, uh, uh, I, I, I think I get it, and I … I’m … I’m trying to go down the line to find somebody who has, A, the, the authority, and B, the honor to get the laws enforced that I’ve worked for 18 years to put on the books. That’s kind of the short version. But-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah. And, and I’m not, and I’m not trying to downplay the work you’ve put into it, or the, uh, you know, the, the righteousness of your cause as you see. Uh, my, my point is simply that, you know, the, the, the structural, uh, s- system as it stands, um, you’re gonna be facing a very, very tall order. Um, you know, uh, I … It reminds me a lot of, um … You know, there’s a whole line of Supreme Court cases about, uh, redistricting, and whether the Supreme Court can step in and … into gerrymandering, right? And the Supreme Court has come out and said, “Well, that’s essentially a political question,” and if it’s a political question, they have a doctrine where they’re just not gonna get into it, and they say, “We’re gonna leave that up to the general assembly and the voters.” And they don’t step into it.
And I think what you’re gonna find as you, as you explore this issue with other folks is that, in the Constitution, yes, you’re right. You absolutely quoted it, “The faithful execution of the laws,” but there’s a lot of discretion about how one actually goes about doing that. And I, I, I mean, ultimately, I think you’re gonna find that even, uh, a court’s not gonna be willing to step in and say, “No. This is how you should be doing it, Governor.” Or, um, you know, an agency isn’t gonna have that ability. And … Yo- you know?
So, I think it’s ultimately gonna come down to a political questions, and that’s, uh, and that’s one where it’s … You have to get, uh, public opinion, and um, and the, and the voters involved if you wanna see change on that.
D.A. King:
Well, I-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
That’s just my … That’s, that’s my two cents, anyway. [inaudible 00:07:29]
D.A. King:
No, no. I, I, I … And I’m grateful for it. I … Just an observation, it’s nothing to do with, with your office. It’s just two guys talking on this next sentence, and that is, it is impossible to get a public opinion on your side when the media, um, is diligent in their effort-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah.
D.A. King:
… to prevent the public from knowing anything about what you and I are discussing right now.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Mm-hmm.
D.A. King:
That’s neither here nor there for you. I understand. I just had to say it. So-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Well, no. I mean, I can, I can, I can certainly sympathize with, uh, with frustration (laughs) with media coverage. I, I, I hear you. I know it can feel like an uphill battle just about every day on that.
D.A. King:
Okay. So … I, and I, I’m, I’m assuming that when I speak to other … When I speak to law enforcement they’re, the … They’re not authorized or they refuse or they’re not able, however it’s phrased, to offer legal advice.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Mm-hmm.
D.A. King:
So, you can answer my question, my next question like that, and I will understand, but-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
(laughs) Oh, no. You’re [inaudible 00:08:23]
D.A. King:
… if, if you were me-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah. (laughs)
D.A. King:
… what would you do to try to find anybody with authority to force the Governor of Georgia to obey his oath of office when people are literally being murdered, raped, and killed on this?
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah. Right. I mean, when you say … A- a- again, it’s, it’s … When you’re ta- when you’re wanting to see the change being … The governor of a state is a very powerful individual, uh, with a lot of, uh, you know, authority and discretion. Um, to force him to do anything, I, I, I am not aware of any le- legal avenue for that to happen through a mandate. I think the only way, in my mind, for you to get what you want as you’ve outlined in your complaint is gonna be at the ballot box or it’s gonna be through the general assembly.
It’s gonna be through the political process. That’s, that’s, that’s my take on it, ’cause I don’t, I, I, I’m not aware of any legal remedy, personally, or any other one through state government.
D.A. King:
Okay.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
That is just [inaudible 00:09:28] for you.
D.A. King:
I, I, I appreciate that. I’ve, I’ve kinda deduced that.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah.
D.A. King:
I was hoping maybe you had lift- … You could lift the veil on something I wasn’t aware of.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah.
D.A. King:
What about the same question as applied to the sheriff of Gwinnett? I have seen news reports-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Hm.
D.A. King:
… and legal documents in which the, the, a sitting governor of Georgia has, has suspended a sheriff after charges-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah.
D.A. King:
… were leveled at that sheriff for violation of his oath of office.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Well, it reminds me … Um, didn’t we just see, uh, Governor DeSantis do that to a district attorney down in Florida, right? F- … Uh, and that one ha- happened to be about … What was it? Marijuana prosecutions, or maybe it was abortion prosecutions? I forget exactly. Uh, but that’s, that’s what it reminds me of is, is, um, the Governor of Florida stepped in and removed a county official through statutes that he had at his disposal.
I don’t know if any of those are … carry over into Georgia, uh [inaudible 00:10:21]
D.A. King:
Well, yes, sir. But I, I, what … My, my example was in, in, was in Georgia.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah, yeah.
D.A. King:
Geor- Georgia governors have, have relieved Georgia sheriffs of their duties because they have been-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah.
D.A. King:
… charged with something. I can’t find anybody to even charge the sheriff with anything.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, now, now I know that, that if, if, if the, if the sheriffs are actually charged with a crime, then, yes. Absolutely. The … And a statute kicks into effect where they, they are removed, and the governor does that routinely. Um, so, I guess to that point, if you think you can make a, uh, criminal case out of this, um, then that’s how they would be removed from office.
I don’t know if there’s a … What I don’t know about is if there’s discretionary mechanism where he can do it absent a criminal case if you, if you catch my drift. Um, but if you’re looking for a, uh … You know, the automatic removable that’s triggered by an indictment, uh, yeah. That’s, that’s absolutely on the books, and the people who could bring an indictment against the county sheriff are gonna be either the, uh, County District Attorney, um, it’s gonna be the Attorney General, or it’s gonna be the US Attorney.
And um, I think, again, just, um … My own personal assessment is I doubt you’re gonna get much of a consideration from, uh … I think the only person who might be willing to review the complaint would be the Attorney Generals Office. That’s just my-
D.A. King:
Hm. That’s bad news for me. But I, I-
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah. That’s just my own assessment, but …
D.A. King:
I, I, I, I appreciate that very much. Um, okay. To … Uh, uh, one more time, thank you very much for your courtesy and your time. Please know that having been involved in the politics Under the Gold Dome and in Georgia for as long as I have, I am not only grateful for what you’re saying, but very, very unsurprised. (laughs)
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
Yeah. Well, look, I always … Look. I always respect the passion. So, um, I don’t, I don’t know if we’d always see eye-to-eye on every issue, but I’m certainly willing to, to, to give you my, my thoughts on it. My, um, I … You know. I’m always glad to hear of someone thinking of OIG whether it’s the right case for us or not. So, um, best of luck to you, all right?
D.A. King:
Thank you very much.
GA OIG Scott McAfee:
All right. Take care.
D.A. King:
You too.
